Whoa, this is huge for me
Just found Molly talking about an article by F.F. Bruce.
One major concern of the scribes and Pharisees of our Lord's day was to apply their contemporaries a code of laws originally given in quite another way of life. The sabbath law, for example, was formulated in relation to a simple pastoral or agrarian economy, in which 'work' was a clearly understood term. But what kinds of activity came within the prohibition of 'work' in the more complex situation at the dawn of the Christian era? The scribes saw that detailed definition was necessary if people were to have clear guidance in this matter: in one their schools thirty-nine categories of 'work' were specified, all of which were banned on the sabbath.
That was one way to tackle the problem of cultural relativity; the way of Jesus was different. He preferred to go back to first principles: any kind of action which promoted the original purpose of the commandment fulfilled it; any kind of action which hindered that original purpose violated it. But it was for people to decide for themselves which actions promoted the original purpose and which actions hindered it he would not lay down precise regulations.
The gospels exhibit the contrast between the scribal way and the way of Jesus in the handling of the Old Testament. Subsequent church history, down to our own generation, exhibits the same contrast in the handling of the New Testament and the varying attempts to apply its principles to changing situations. Canon law, whether it is explicitly so called or not, exemplifies the scribal way-the tradition of the elders.
Cultural relativity is certainly to be reckoned with when the permanent message of the New Testament receives our practical attention today. The local and temporary situation in which that message was first delivered must be appreciated if we are to discern what its permanent essence really is and learn to re-apply it in the local and temporary circumstances of our own culture.
I'd never thought of it before, but he is exactly right. I can think of TONS of rules that we conservative Christians set forth because "that's what the New Testament says to do."
More:
Exegesis seeks to determine the meaning of the text in its primary setting. But when exegesis has done its work, our application of the text should avoid treating the New Testament as a book of rules. In applying the New Testament text to our situation, we need not treat it as the scribes of our Lord's day treated the Old Testament. We should not turn what were meant as guiding lines for worshippers in one situation into laws binding for all time. (It is commonly recognised that the regulations regarding widows, later in 1 Tim., need not be carried out literally today, although their essential principles should continue to be observed.) It is an ironical paradox when Paul, who was so concerned to free his converts from bondage of law, is treated as a law-giver for later generations. The freedom of the Spirit, which can be safeguarded by one set of guiding lines in a particular situation, may call for a different procedure in a new situation.
It is very naturally asked what criteria can be safely used to distinguish between those elements in the apostolic letters which are of local and temporary application and those which are of universal and permanent validity. The question is too big for a detailed discussion here. Where the writings of Paul are concerned, however, a reliable rule of thumb is suggested by his passionate emphasis on freedom-true freedom by contrast with spiritual bondage on the one hand and moral licence on the other. Here it is: whatever in Paul's teaching promotes true freedom is of universal and permanent validity; whatever seems to impose restrictions on true freedom has regard to local and temporary conditions. (For example, to go to another area, restrictions on Christian's freedom in the matter of food are conditioned by the company in which he or she is at the time; and even those restrictions are manifestations of the overriding principle of always considering the well-being of others.)
Read the entire article here. It is dealing primarily with the role of women, but the paragraphs I shared just jumped out at me due to where I am and where I've been in my conservative Christianity.

Holly wrote,
I enjoyed the article, too.
Link | September 30th, 2006 at 4:22 pm
barbara wrote,
Keer, nice changes…love the new look
i will read this tomorrow and digest it a bit…i lean to agreeing but something is NOT hitting me right with what you clipped…will read it in context and mull it over
Link | October 1st, 2006 at 12:43 pm
Julie G. wrote,
Very nice, Keer. Thanks so much.
If you don’t mind, I may link this to my new blog as well, once I figure out how to do it.
I think we’re coming to some of the same conclusions these days, KWIM?
– Julie in Ohio
Link | October 1st, 2006 at 7:35 pm
Julie G. wrote,
P.S. My new blog address is http://highlandjewel.blogspot.com — “A New Season of Life”.
Link | October 1st, 2006 at 8:01 pm
Brindusa wrote,
Hello Keer,
I haven’t written anything here for a loong time.
Some time ago I read somewhere that in order to understand the “here and now” we must first understand the “there and then” of any Bible passage. What it meant at that particular time and at that specific place shows how we are meant to apply it now. A common sense example: we want to be biblical in our financial life; the early Gentile believers sent money they had set aside to Jerusalem. Does that mean that the money we save for the purpose of giving must be sent to Jerusalem, to follow that passage literally? Of course not. It means to share with other Christians in need, and more especially with those to whom we owe spiritually. That was just an example.
However, I for one have great problems with the article, after reading all of it. Just a few examples here (a few quotes from the article):
“It is in the fall narrative, not in the creation narrative, that superiority of the one sex over the other is first mentioned.” No, actually, I don’t find that the “superiority of the one sex over the other” is mentioned anywhere in that text, do you? I don’t see any superiority in the fall narrative. It doesn’t mention any. It does mention the way the sexes will relate to each other. But that’s not a problem because the Bible does not teach superiority of either, but rather EQUALITY accompanied by DIFFERENCE in roles and functions. The wife is to help and submit to the husband as the church is to submit to Christ, as Christ submitted to the Father. The Son and the Father are ONE and submission does not mean inferiority. Christ is not inferior to God the Father.
“The relevance of the two arguments-(a) that Adam was formed before Eve and (b) that Eve was genuinely deceived whereas Adam knew what he was doing when he broke the divine commandment-is not immediately obvious; I am not too happy with the suggestions that the former is an early instance of the principle of primogeniture, in which the special rights of the firstborn are recognised.” The relevance IS obvious but it contradicts what the author is trying to prove. The point is that since the order of creation itself is grounds for the position of man as leader, as head, it is NOT relative. It is not something local, having to do with a period of time in a certain culture.
“Paul, on the other hand, expects Christian women to play a responsible part in church meetings, and if, out of concern for public order, he asks them to veil their heads when they pray or prophesy, the veil is the sign of their authority to exercise their Christian liberty in this way, not the sign of someone else’s authority over them.” How the author reaches such a conclusion which contradicts the whole context of the chapter (1 Cor.11) is beyond me, unless it’s all right to just take what you would like a passage to mean and say that is what it means.
“Where the writings of Paul are concerned, however, a reliable rule of thumb is suggested by his passionate emphasis on freedom-true freedom by contrast with spiritual bondage on the one hand and moral licence on the other. Here it is: whatever in Paul’s teaching promotes true freedom is of universal and permanent validity; whatever seems to impose restrictions on true freedom has regard to local and temporary conditions.” This ‘rule of thumb’ is not quite so reliable, and is quite subject to interpretation and whim. Modesty in dress “seems to impose restrictions on true freedom”. Sexual abstinence “seems to impose restrictions on true freedom”. And the list could go on and on. The idea that the woman is responsible to guard her home and raise her children “seems to impose restrictions on true freedom”. Whether something “seems to impose restrictions on true freedom” is not a valid criterion for determining whether it is correct and truly Biblical. It could very well just be one’s flesh crying out against the ‘restrictions’.
Concerning the mention of Darby and his statement that if a few women were along on a deserted island, of course they should be able to have communion even if no man were present to break the bread… Well, OF COURSE: the Bible does not say woman is not to teach another woman or to break bread with another. The point is for a woman to not have authority OVER MAN. No problem here.
Well, these are just a few quotes I selected after a first reading. I should also mention that the author makes of mixture of what the Bible does say and what various people did in history. For instance, that ‘pious Jews’ would thank God for not being women (and I know it’s true they were praying like that) does not mean that is what the Bible supports or endorses. God as Creator and sovereign Lord certainly had the right to choose to be served in the Temple by men or to have males be circumcised without being put on the same level as the Jews giving thanks for not being women. (And God has not changed from the Old Testament to the New. It’s not like He was chauvinistic then but He has changed since Jesus came.)
Where I stand is: men and women are equals before God, men are not superior or more valuable. Men and women alike are lost in sin and men and women alike have access to God in Christ. Equally. However, equality does NOT mean identity in make-up or roles or functions (as the feminist obsession is). Submission is important in the order of God: submission of employees to employers to the extent that the latter do not go beyond their rights by asking their employers to sin, submission of wives to their husbands - not of women to men in general - (to the extent, again, that the husbands do not ask them to sin against God), submission of children to parents (to the extent that parents do not ask that their children engage in sin), submission of church members to those appointed by God to feed and lead them (to the extent that they do not come up with unbiblical doctrines or otherwise overstep the limits of their authority) … Submission does not imply superiority or inferiority at any level. As for the idea of women pastors/priests, whether we personally like it or dislike it is irrelevant, the Bible IS rather clear on that (women are not to have authority over men).
Keer, I hope it’s all right that I mentioned other passages in the article besides the ones you quoted. I’m all for giving up what is mere human tradition as opposed to what the Bible actually does teach. But the author went quite beyond that in my opinion and puts forth some arguments that do not stand and are not biblically valid.
I was going to end here, but on second thought, here’s something for those thinking that women should be preachers and pastors/priests in the church: Philip the evangelist had four daughters who prophesied (Acts 21). But God sent Agabus, a male prophet, to speak to Paul of what was awaiting him.
Link | October 2nd, 2006 at 6:19 am
Molly wrote,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I agree with much of what you say: I, too, am all for giving up what is mere tradition as opposed to what the Bible is actually teaching. I have a few different observations to add to the mix (which you may or may not agree with–lol).
I think FF Bruce was pointing out was that it is only by reading something INTO the pre-Fall story that we see strict heirarchy.
And again, we see that *in* the Fall, *now* man shall rule woman (Gen 3:16). Patriarchy, in that sense, is born and will now be the norm on the earth, just as pain in childbirth and just as weeds in fields.
So seeing patriarchy in the Bible should be expected, just as we will see other aspects of the Fall. We will see patriarchy supported in the Old Testament, just as we will see other fallen aspects supported (slavery, divorce, etc), because (this is important) the Law was not given to set man free from the curse.
We should also not be surprised to see Paul writing to a patriarchal culture. The Roman culture and the Hebrew culture, though there were exceptions, was highly patriarchal. We do ourselves a GREAT disservice if we go to the Scriptures assuming Paul was only setting policy, as opposed to writing to a people immersed within a specific cultural flow.
Paul was writing to a patriarchal culture…just as he was writing to a slave-owning culture. How does the Gospel play into a slave-owning culture, when we say our Jesus sets the captives free? Obviously, we know that Paul supported the slave-owning on the one hand…yet he planted the seeds of subversion on the other hand (Philemon, for example)…
Did he do the same thing with regards to patriarchy? Because NO ONE at that time said anything like Paul said in Galatians–”there is no male nor female, slave or free, Jew or Greek in Christ…”
One other point: with regards to equality and submission, it is true that one can be equal and yet submit in function. Yet some of the patriarchal teachers say that a woman is INHERANTLY subordinate. It is not a “function” that she sometimes puts on (like an employee to an employer), but it is her very nature BECAUSE she is a woman.
Meaning, she is in subjection to her father until she marries, at which point she is now subject to her husband — at no point is she not under a “covenental head” (in patriarchy speak).
She *needs* the covenental head to protect her, she *needs* the covenental head because she is a weaker vessel and prone to deception, she is supposed to hear from God through her covenental head (his decisions are God’s decisions for her), etc…
So the “Oh, but you are equal” thing is really not referring to her personhood, because that form of patriarchy says that she is NOT equal in person (she needs male headship because of her inferior nature). She is only equal in that she can recieve salvation from God, but she is not equal in her actual spirit/soul/body to a man.
On a personal note, I am not opposed at all to the idea that a husband has slightly more authority than a wife. I look at Adam and Eve before the Fall and I see a King and Queen ruling—The queen not suggesting that the king ought to be de-throned, and yet simotaneously, the command to take dominion was not God telling Adam to take dominion over Eve, but for them BOTH (see Gen 1) to rule.
Two thrones, side by side. The king is still the king, but the queen is still the queen. Sometimes in patriarchal readings, you hear that the man is called to rule, and the woman is called to assist. Sort of a picture of a king and his…secretary.
Again, in Ephesians 1, Christ as Head is taking dominion…but note what He is taking dominion of—all things being put UNDER HIS FEET (and she is His body, so again, we see that idea of the King and Queen–they are BOTH taking dominion together–He isn’t putting her under His feet, right? She is His feet!!! lol)…
PS. As for Agabus speaking to Paul, I’m not sure that proves anything…? We have clear record of prophetesses speaking to men in Scripture, and we also have clear records of women working alongside men in the promotion of the Gospel, including the use of leadership-type terms (which are usually translated into “helper” type terms when they are used of women, as opposed to “leader” type terms when they are used for me–I was a little mad when I first discovered that, after thinking I’d been “sticking to straight Scripture” for so long…
Okay, there’s my thoughts, in a very small nutshell. I’m assuming you will disagree, of course (and I’m glad we all have the freedom to disagree—it is a good thing), but I just wanted to throw out another perspective.
Link | October 2nd, 2006 at 9:59 am
Brindusa wrote,
To Molly:
“I’m assuming you will disagree, of course”. You’re right in that.
Not with every point you make though, but with some. Thank you for taking the time to write, I cannot write more at the moment.
Link | October 2nd, 2006 at 1:10 pm
Molly wrote,
I am short on time too…besides, this conversation has been hashed and rehashed many times over on the internet amongst others, so it’s not like it’s bound to do anything different here.
My involvement really wasn’t with intent to deepen the divide, but to simply say that there ARE those who DO hold to the foundation of the Scriptures yet who do not see patriarchy supported in them as God’s original intent for mankind, or His heart for us now.
FF Bruce, for example, is a renowned Bible Scholar loved by the conservative camps…he is not someone who just throws off Biblical restraints when he doesn’t like them.
So many times the discussion is framed with a, “We who have Biblical standards think such-n-such, whereas liberals who do not value Scripture think such-n-such.” This is what I, myself, thought–and because of that, never bothered to listen to the “other side”—why listen when they don’t even take Scripture seriously?
So that was my main point…lol…albeit probably confusingly made. Sure, there might be liberals who don’t agree with the subjigation of women (for whatever reasons), BUT there are conservatives who hold *tightly* to Scripture AND do not agree with female subordination.
…Meaning, they do not differ with patriarchy because they are ignoring Scripture, rather they differ with patriarchy BECAUSE of Scripture. I am one of those (a former patriarchal die-hard who quickly and ably fought any opposition).
(A Big PS. Rebellion is the last thing I am advocating—the Gospel calls us to LOVE and to HONOR others, so whether woman is subordinate to man or whether she is a full equal, or WHATEVER, she is STILL called of Christ to love and to honor her brothers).
Warmly,
Molly
Link | October 2nd, 2006 at 5:06 pm
Promise I’m not ignoring. Just incredibly busy and pooped!!!
Link | October 3rd, 2006 at 9:11 pm
Corrie wrote,
Molly,
I really appreciated you taking the time to make the points you did. I think you really went in and got to the heart of the matter and why the proponents of Patriarchy are really off in some of their thinking. The are not wrong about everything but in the areas that they are wrong, imho, they are really wrong.
Link | October 4th, 2006 at 10:19 pm