Separation of church and state
Had this thought dawn on me the other day as I was driving down the road, listening to some radio show:
All this hype about separation of the church and state, what the Founding Fathers intended, blah blah blah...
If stuff like prayer and the Bible in schools (or other things along those lines that the ACLU is always up in arms about - not just these two issues) were so contrary to what the Founding Fathers wanted, why didn't they tackle these issues right off the get go? If they were so concerned about issues like these, they should have done something about it. But they didn't and apparently were fine with these things.
What makes the ACLU and others think that they are so much more "enlightened" about the Founding Fathers' intent than the Founding Fathers themselves?
Barbara wrote,
Very good and I agree with you 100%!
Link | January 5th, 2006 at 8:42 am
WeathertopMama wrote,
Even though we began as a melting pot, so to speak, I doubt the Founding Fathers ever imagined we would be such a diverse nation.
Sometimes the Constitution does seem inadequate or outdated for this group of people (lamenting that fact, but recognizing it all the same).
So then the question needs to change. If we are honest we can see easily what the Founding Fathers had in mind. Maybe we should be asking if their vision is still our vision?
~Amy, the closet revolutionary
Link | January 8th, 2006 at 12:13 pm
My View wrote,
This post has been removed by the author.
Link | January 17th, 2006 at 11:32 am
My View wrote,
Why would you not want separtation of church and state? Do you really want the state dictating what the church can and can not do? I think the church and the state need to be polar opposites. In fact, I question whether churches accepting 501(c)3 status is scriptural.
The church has no business being in bed with the secular state.
Your friend,
Andy
Link | January 17th, 2006 at 11:34 am
razorbackmama wrote,
I want what the Founding Fathers intended. Separation of church FROM the state, not separation of the state (and society at large) FROM the church (which is what the ACLU and their cohorts are trying to do).
I think you’ve missed my point….
Link | January 17th, 2006 at 2:06 pm
My View wrote,
Why not separation of the state and society at large from the church? I guess I don’t follow you…
Why would you want the state infecting the church?
Admittedly, I am very tired. Sorry if I misunderstand your position.
Andy
Link | January 17th, 2006 at 8:17 pm
razorbackmama wrote,
Andy, as I said in my last comment, I do NOT want the state to be involved in the church.
What I am saying is that the Founding Fathers never intended for God to be removed from anything and everything “governmental” or even “public.” For example…prayer in schools. (Which was the point of my post.) Had that been of such concern (as the ACLU likes to think it is), the Founding Fathers would have tackled that themselves right away.
Link | January 17th, 2006 at 8:53 pm
My View wrote,
How can God be removed from anything? So what if the government says prayer in school is no longer allowed. The person of faith will pray anyway. God resides within the heart of man. The government can say whatever they wish. It can’t banish the Holy Spirit from within the man. We tend to forget that we are promised persecution. Why are we so bent on living a smooth, problem-free life?
As to what the founding fathers intended for our country, who really knows? Many of them referred to God as god (lower case). Some were Quakers who thought Jesus to be a great man and prophet but not the Messiah. We need to be sure of what is meant when the name “God” is invoked. “God” means different things to different people.
Quotes from the Founding Fathers:
“I believe in one God, Creator of the universe…. That the most acceptable service we can render Him is doing good to His other children…. As to Jesus … I have … some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble.” - Benjamin Franklin (Alice J. Hall, “Philosopher of Dissent: Benj. Franklin,” National Geographic, Vol. 148, No. 1, July, 1975, p. 94.)
“Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.” - Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)
“Every man “ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience.” - George Washington (Letter to the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789)
“Question with boldness even the existence of a god.” - Thomas Jefferson (letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787)
“Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error
all over the earth.” - Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.)
“During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.” - James Madison (Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, 1785.)
“The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.” - James Madison (Original wording of the First Amendment; Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789).)
“As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.” - (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 - signed by President John Adams.)
“That religion, or the duty we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience.” - Patrick Henry (Virginia Bill of Rights, June 12, 1776.)
Andy
Link | January 18th, 2006 at 7:35 am
razorbackmama wrote,
Andy,
Methinks you enjoy looking for a debate even where there is none.
I posted this post, not to debate, but just to share a thought I had.
If prayer in schools (or anything of that nature) was as big of a stink as all the ACLU gurus think it is, then the Founding Fathers would have tackled it themselves.
THAT’S ALL I’M SAYING.
Please stop assuming and seeking a debate where there isn’t intended to be one.
Link | January 18th, 2006 at 10:09 am
My View wrote,
Sorry for causing you to become so angry. Guess I should keep my opinions to myself. I was looking for some conversation, that’s all.
I will consider myself banned from your blog. Unless, of course, you say otherwise.
Andy
Link | January 18th, 2006 at 11:52 am
razorbackmama wrote,
Andy,
No one said anything about anger, banning, or the like. PLEASE be careful with what you read into posts!
Conversation is FINE!
Debate when there isn’t intended to be one isn’t so cool.
I am not banning you from commenting, but I AM asking you to not read things into my post that aren’t there. I think we agree on this more than we don’t, yet you seem to be stirring up a debate.
Link | January 18th, 2006 at 12:00 pm
My View wrote,
Thanks. I’ll reel myself in. I guess I am just accustomed to no one ever agreeing with me!
My blog is http://www.xanga.com/jesuswasapacifist if you care to check it out…
Andy
Link | January 19th, 2006 at 11:46 am