Keer “Unplugged”

Those of you who have read Created To Be His Help Meet: 46 Comments

1. Crystal wrote,

   I would agree. I’ve read the book, but only skimmed your comments so I can’t be an “authority” on this. But that seems like what might be the issue here.:)

   For the record, the book was very helpful to me and to our marriage. I took it’s overall message to mean that submission is going to look different for each different woman in each different situation. I needed the smack in the forehead and the reminder to put my husband first. I needed to be reminded of how wonderful he is and to always focus on building him up. I so easily forget that. If I were married to an abusive husband, perhaps I would have a different perspective on the book? I’m not sure. Regardless, I try to stay out of CTBHHM arguments as they don’t seem to go anywhere.

   But, I do think we always need to be reminded that no book or author is perfect, except the Bible and that should be our guidebook. Other books can be very beneficial, but we should never hold a human’s word above God’s Word. So, I appreciate your thorough review. I also appreciated that you did bring out some things that you agreed with, thus making it a balanced review, not just a vitriolic “review” by someone who has only read a little section of the book (I’ve seen plenty of those, sadly.)

   Link | September 28th, 2005 at 4:36 pm

2. Spunky wrote,

   Crystal I understand your perspective. But I think that the reviews have really gotten to the heart of the matter. If you read all of the comments under my most recent statement of unity. I finally have hit on the root of the issue. Rebekah in her comments and a review of the Pearls website reveals a theology about the sin nature of man.

   This theology is contrary to what I believe as a Christian. I believe that we are born with a sin nature. The Pearls do not. It would take longer than a comment box to go into it all but if you go to the comments under this post you will fin a great deal of understanding on why this book is so troubling. It is because at its root the Pearls theology is troubling.

   Here is what blogger Catez wrote

   “The difference is that the Pearls do not teach that we are born with a sin nature, and that is clearly stated in Michael pearls sermon on Romans 1. The orthodox Christian belief that man’s nature is sinful. Michael pearl teaches that while we are under a curse we do not have sin imputed to us until a certain age, and that we are not born with a sinful nature but reach a stage of moral understanding and accountability. If you look at waht the Pearl’s statement of faith says you can see the semi-pelagianism in it - a mixture of man’s own “goodness” apart from God and the gospel of salvation combined. It becomes more evident when listening to the teaching. In their statement of faith they are saying that sin is not imputed to an unbeliever until a certain age - and thus they are saying that until a certain age an unbleiever would not need justification. That is simply not a scriptural position to hold - all are guilty before God and no age is set before sin is imputed. In essence Michael pearl’s teaching is that we are not born with a sinful nature and that until a certain age we are not in need of justification. He does not specify the age (which he cannot do as it is not scriptural).
   Where Rebekah’s comment fits in is that it proposes that we can act from our own “goodness” apart from God - and so works are added to grace as a means of godliness. Works done by the grace of God working within us will be godly - but one cannot add works in the place of grace.”

   This theology is hidden from view in the book but it is the underlying basis for the book. And the fundamental reason for my theological disagreement outlined in my first post on the book. I did not at the time know all the theology behind what the Pearls believe nor did I have a name for it “Palegian” but I know the less realized the troubling nature of this from the beginning of the book. This theology would be especially troubling to those who may lean in a reformed direction. This teaching is directly opposite of that.

   Here’s the link to my post with the comments that investigates this more fully. For those who desire to understand the truth behind the theology of the Pearls it will be as enlgihtening for you as it was for me.

   http://spunkyhomeschool.blogspot.com/2005/09/statement-of-unity-in-midst-of.html

   This cleared things up so much more for me.

   Link | September 28th, 2005 at 6:05 pm

3. Spunky wrote,

   I did not write this to debate the Pearls doctrine. I posted it merely to show how having gone through the differing discussions helped bring all of this to the surface for me.

   Link | September 28th, 2005 at 6:47 pm

4. Crystal wrote,

   From what I have gathered, the Pearls believe in “sinless perfection” which is entirely different than the above-mentioned doctrine. But I am not entirely sure about that.

   Link | September 28th, 2005 at 9:09 pm

5. razorbackmama wrote,

   Just here for a second while I nurse LOL, but they believe both - that man does not have a sin nature and is not sinful from birth AND in sinless perfection.

   Link | September 28th, 2005 at 9:14 pm

6. Crystal wrote,

   I forgot to say: I haven’t studied the Pearls doctrinal stuff because I already know I disagree with them on that. However, I didn’t find much doctrinal stuff in the book, just plain encouragement to build up my husband. Stuff I don’t get many other places. What I took from the book was to focus on doing all I can to love, honor, and cherish my husband. I know this is what I am supposed to do, but I need the reminder as often as I can get it.

   Of course I think you should report an abusive husband to the authorities, of course I don’t think you should let your husband be a selfish pig, and of course I think there is a time and a place to reprove your husband. Any book can be taken way out of balance and we need to hold everything up to the light of Scripture. But, my husband says that there is not a man on earth who would not desire to be respected, loved, honored, and reverenced by his wife. Every man should be the king in his own home.

   I wish more older women would step up and encourage younger women in this. It’s hard to be a younger woman without a lot of support coming from many places to encourage us to truly reverence our husbands and fulfill our calling as helpmeets. (My husband and I are living in a very spiritual deserted town while he finishes up law school).

   I am so often encouraged by the words and examples of older, experienced, homeschooling, Christian women to look down on my husband, be my own boss, make my own decisions, and do my own thing. It’s really sad and hard.

   Link | September 28th, 2005 at 9:33 pm

7. Crystal wrote,

   Oops, I meant to say: “…A very spiritually-deserted town…”

   Link | September 28th, 2005 at 9:38 pm

8. Kristin wrote,

   Crystal I was where you were many years ago myself. I had 1 child when my husband entered night school for his MBA and when he finished four years later I had 3 and pregnant with my fourth. I kept asking where are all the “older women?”

   But I came to realize that a Titus 2 woman was first and foremose in my own mother. Her love and example will endure longer than any book that I read. It’s not a matter of someone “stepping up”. It’s a place that God will put someone in of HIS Choosing. Not ours.

   The scripture does not say you or I MUST have a Titus 2 woman. But merely that there is a biblical function that an older woman should fulfill. That may not always look they way we expect (ie. a book or a national minsitry) but they are there. Be patient and let God bring the things and people HE feels you need to you. If it is truly a void in your life, God knows and HE will fill it.

   As far as the book goes, it is doctrinal. There is doctrine all over it. It is disingenuous to say she was just giving practical exasmples, She didn’t bill this book as Debi Pearl’s Pracical Guide to being a help meet. She said that it is God’s Plan. And she makes many doctrinal statements outright. And many others are implied.

   It is from the doctrine that this book has its foundation. Rebekah understood this and that’s why she made the statements that she did. She understands that the reason for this “negativity” is a belief about the sinful nature of man. That tells me that she sees a difference in how she and I might view the sinful nature. And that this differing view affects how we read the book. I say that is totally the case as well.

   I am glad this book helped many. That is great. But one of the first qualifications of a Titus 2 woman (or man) is to teach sound doctrine. (Verse 1). Before I accept a book written by a woman who declares herself a Titus 2 woman I must see that she meets the biblical stanard. And this book fails in the most basic way. It does NOT teach sound doctrine.

   Repentance of sin is a necessary first step before we can become the help meet God OR our husband will be blessed with. Further, when we fail it is only through repentance that we can pick up the pieces of our mistakes and make all things new again in HIM. To begin to do anything but that is to put new wine into old wineskins and that never works.

   Link | September 29th, 2005 at 5:55 am

9. Spunky wrote,

   Oops that was Spunky NOT Spunky Jr. that wrote the last comment. I was signed in as my daughter.

   Link | September 29th, 2005 at 5:56 am

10. Serena wrote,

    That is so true, Spunky. Besides, books do not take the place of a real person that we know. It is sad that Crystal is being encouraged that way by older women. Really, I think the main issue is that we encourage others to turn to Messiah and allow Him to do His work in them. On that basis, we then can encourage them in the things in Titus 2. Without the right foundation, then it is just wood, hay and stubble anyway. We will only be a true Titus 2 woman when we have abandoned to Yeshua the Messiah. Then we will have the foundation and character in our lives that comes from Him. Anyone that is abandoned to Him and is learning to hear His voice will be growing in their relationships with the people in their lives. I’m not negating what is in Titus, but that scripture is somewhat singular, so while it is important, we can raise it far above what it should be and make a huge “doctrine” out of it. We are to be disciples of Messiah and then go from there.
    Besides, there are a lot of good books out there on being a good wife. The reason I think why women like Debi’s book is because of the “gutsy” style in which she wrote it. Personally, I find some of that gutsiness offensive, especially in her descriptions of other women (like when she was watching people go into that store). That is not being a Titus 2 woman to teach other women to have those kinds of attitudes towards others.
    Love and shalom,
    Serena

    Link | September 29th, 2005 at 7:38 am

11. Anne wrote,

    quote:
    Repentance of sin is a necessary first step before we can become the help meet God OR our husband will be blessed with. Further, when we fail it is only through repentance that we can pick up the pieces of our mistakes and make all things new again in HIM. To begin to do anything but that is to put new wine into old wineskins and that never works.
    ————————————–

    Thank you, Spunky for this. I think I’m starting to understand. Not just for salvation, but for everday life. I’ve been reading in Matthew and Matt. 6:33 popped out to me. I don’t think it means what I’ve always assumed it to mean. Works truly don’t matter without repentance. And then I read on into chapter 7…….

    Link | September 29th, 2005 at 7:48 am

12. Dawn wrote,

    Well said Kristin.

    I agree. Again, doctrine colors our eyeglasses so-to-speak. I am reformed and it affects how I see things. I believe God is fully sovereign, and it doesn’t JUST affect how I see salvation. It affects how I see everything that “happens” to me, how I view my own sin, how I view submission and headship and all sorts of things. It comforts me when I feel confused or depressed. In short, it is what I believe the Word of God to teach about all of life and faith. It is not in a box in the corner of my heart that I choose to open only at certain times and can ignore it when it comes to other issues.

    If someone does not believe in sin nature and also believes we can choose to attain a sinless perfection in this life, there is no way that can be separated from how they view submission, in the case of this book. She does not have to come out and say, “This is the doctrine I believe and why I say what I do and that doctrine is xyz”.

    People say one of the things they like about the Pearls is their bluntness. That comes from their doctrine, in part. They believe we can simply CHOOSE to obey because we can CHOOSE to be sinless. There will also be a very lessened dependence upon the Holy Spirit. It has to happen. If we can simply choose to stop sinning (which outwardly would be easier than inwardly as the heart is decietfully wicked), how will that not foster a high view of man’s own abilities? We are told “just do it” because they really believe we can “just do it”.

    I find it interesting that in the book they say that if a husband tells a wife not to go to church, it is because of his jealousy that God is taking his place and counsels the woman NOT TO GO! That violates the command to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together, the first and the fourth commandments. Their view of a husband and his leadership of the wife goes beyond even God’s. In essence, the husband takes Christ’s place in the wife’s life.

    That is scary stuff.

    Link | September 29th, 2005 at 7:56 am

13. Spunky wrote,

    Scripture says I we confess our sin he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    And scripture also teaches that we are to confess our sins one to another.

    When we humble ourselves before God and our husbands we can begin to walk in the ways of His Word in a relationship with Him.

    God desires to walk with us in our journey to being good help mates. When we are not in a relationship with God or have wronged our husbands by our past sins we cannot restore that except by confession and repentance. That was the whole point of my first post.

    A merry heart (or any other good work) will not remove the past or restore a broken relationship.

    Only God’s grace experienced through the blood of Jesus will.

    Link | September 29th, 2005 at 7:56 am

14. Dawn wrote,

    Anything good I do is filthy rags to God. He knows the heart. If we are seeking to be merry and obey, that is a good thing, but not without dependance upon the Lord for any success both in it and by it. If we think any of it is done simply by our decision to do it, we are prideful and presumptious and think more highly of ourselves than we ought.

    Link | September 29th, 2005 at 8:05 am

15. Anne wrote,

    I think I’m also starting to understand the difference between a true and freeing repentance and a futile cycle of tring to do good things … failing… trying to find a way- a formula, a book that’ll help me do better….failing again….feeling guilty….and on and on.

    Link | September 29th, 2005 at 8:12 am

16. Anne wrote,

    I meant to write “repentance *versus* a cycle up there.”

    Link | September 29th, 2005 at 8:14 am

17. Spunky wrote,

    Exactly Dawn. The idea that a woman can put on a “worldy merry heart” as Rebekah stated and experience the benefits of that is false teaching. It makes it seem as though a woman can do it of her own strength and accord. The problem with that is then when she realizes she can’t she will think that God has failed her. But that isn’t the truth. God didn’t fail her it was a book that taught her she could be good without God.

    Link | September 29th, 2005 at 8:25 am

18. sparrow wrote,

    Great discussion!

    I have been listening to Michael Pearl’s Romans series (free download at their site) in order to nail down the doctrinal teachings. He states quite clearly in his sermon on Romans 1:18 that we are not born in sin.

    He then uses that basis to launch into a whole new way to look at Romans…which seems to consist mostly of talking about our failure to obey God’s commands and very, very little about the power of Jesus.

    I’d agree wholeheartedly that these doctrines cannot be separated from the book.

    Great discussion as usual Kristin.

    Link | September 29th, 2005 at 8:58 am

19. Kathleen in MT wrote,

    I agree that the Pearls’ doctrine colors the book and I disagree with some of their doctrine, but that is really not what I found unacceptable about the book. It was the “gutsy” in-your-face style that was so offputting to me. Over and over again in the scripture we are told to deal with each other gently and kindly, but to me Debi believes this doesn’t apply to her. There are many women who are suffering from genuine pain in their marriages and they come to this book for encouragement and help and are instead told that they are probably the reason for all their problems and to quit being so lazy, whiny, and bitter. This is really unhelpful and will turn away the women who need encouragement the most. Those of us who have the average marriages may need that “kick in the pants” but there are many women who just need love and understanding and encouragement to keep on keeping on and do what they know is right. As an example, the woman who was upset about her husband never doing jobs around the house but always helping other people. Debi’s reply was to assume that this woman was lazy and a “home repair dunce” or some such phrase (I gave away my book so can’t check the exact wording). This exact thing has been a problem in my marriage, but in our case, I already do most of the home repair and upkeep, do all the homeschooling, housework (with my children) and cooking and laundry. I passed Debi’s “test” with flying colors. Added to that I also work outside the home and earn an income equal to my husband (and the fact that I work is by HIS choice, not mine). His lack of attention to our home and to me has caused me real pain. To be told that I am lazy and my dh is just tired from working all day and needs to relax was really unhelpful! Instead, I had to come to the realization on my own that this was not the hill to die on, to keep praying for and loving my husband, to concentrate on his good qualities, which are many, and to cry out to the Lord on those days I feel overwhelmed with all I have to do and realize that He is my strength and shield and will get me through whatever needs doing. AND to constantly work on improving communication with my dh so that we can talk about this and other problems and learn to really listen to each other (an area Debi TOTALLY neglects to even address). This is just a personal example, but to me the book is rife with unkindness, false pride, and insults. There are other books that are scripturally sound but do not have this tone. I think the book, “You Can Be the Wife of a Happy Husband” is also fairly blunt in tone (haven’t read it in awhile) but is not so insulting either. There are already SO many good books out there….I am astonished that this one is getting the positive attention it is.

    Link | September 29th, 2005 at 10:47 am

20. Spunky wrote,

    “AND to constantly work on improving communication with my dh so that we can talk about this and other problems and learn to really listen to each other (an area Debi TOTALLY neglects to even address)”

    SO true, and I brought that aspect up in my review. If we are to be our husbands help meet wouldn’t at the very least at some point in this book she direct us to him for his opinion on what it means. That shoudl have been inlcuded right after the chapter she left out on repentance and forgiveness.

    Link | September 29th, 2005 at 11:24 am

21. CrazyJo wrote,

    This is something I’ve brought up with my husband. How can I best help YOU. Yes, there are certain principles which apply to every marriage, but not every woman has the same strengths and gifts. A farmer needs a different “helpmeet” than a politician or writer needs. Unless there is open communication we can be the perfectly “wrong” helpmeet for our husband.

    Link | September 29th, 2005 at 12:14 pm

22. Barbara wrote,

    i wonder what Romans Mr P is reading because the Apostle Paul CERTAINLY doesn’t teach either of the doctrines that he claims it does…
    hmmmmmmmm

    Link | September 29th, 2005 at 3:13 pm

23. Arielle wrote,

    The fact that the book is billed as “God’s plan for marriage” makes it one I would not recommend to anyone. You can’t hand over something billed as being from God, yet which does not stay true to His Word, to people that may or may not know how to discern the truth in it. In this case, I’d say a little leaven leavens the whole loaf.

    Link | September 29th, 2005 at 3:33 pm

24. DollyMama wrote,

    I see two different issues being raised in this discussion. One being the Pearl’s beliefs about sin. The other about whether or not Biblical principles can be applied by Non-Christian people and reap positive results. I think that Biblical principles are indeed beneficial to those who practice them no matter where they are spiritually. Also, I believe that there are MANY “good” people in this world who are also without Christ. Indeed we *can* be GOOD without Jesus. What we cannot be is saved. We even see examples of this in the Bible, such as the rich young ruler who was already doing so many positive things and following the “good” rules. Yes, we can be good on our own.

    Pretty much any woman who decides to honor and please her husband and make him feel like a king is going to have a happy man. That’s simple and it doesn’t even take the Bible to know that. Ask anybody with a truly happy marriage!

    Link | September 29th, 2005 at 7:11 pm

25. Dawn wrote,

    No one is good.

    “The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man,
    to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.

    They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
    there is none who does good,
    not even one.”

    Psalm 14:2-3

    (Genesis 2:17) “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”

    (Genesis 6:5) “And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.”

    (Job 14:4) “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.”

    (Psalms 51:5) “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.”

    (Psalms 58:3) “The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.”

    (Proverbs 30:12) “There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.”

    (Isaiah 1:2-8) “Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me. {3} The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master’s crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider. {4} Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward. {5} Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. {6} From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment. {7} Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers. {8} And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.”

    (Isaiah 40:6-8) “The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: {7} The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. {8} The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.”

    (Isaiah 64:6) “But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.”

    (Jeremiah 13:23) “Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.”

    (Jeremiah 17:9) “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?”

    (Matthew 11:25) “At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.”

    (John 3:3) “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

    (John 3:19) “And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.”

    (John 8:19) “Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.”

    (John 14:16) “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;”

    (Romans 3:10-12) “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: {11} There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. {12} They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”

    (Romans 5:12) “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”

    (1 Corinthians 1:18) “For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”

    (1 Corinthians 2:14) “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

    (2 Corinthians 1:9) “But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:”

    (Ephesians 2:1-3) “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins: {2} Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: {3} Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.”

    (Ephesians 2:12) “That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:”

    Link | September 29th, 2005 at 7:59 pm

26. Barbara wrote,

    hey Dawn, get yer own blog
    thanks for the verses

    Link | September 30th, 2005 at 4:40 am

27. DollyMama wrote,

    I think we may have an issue about which word to use here, Dawn.

    When I say good I am talking about decent, right behavior. I believe that the verses you are sighting are largely equating good with acceptance of Christas savior. Have you never known anyone who was not a Christian who at least engaged in decent, right behavior? Before you were saved did you continuously do wrong and never do anything right?

    I think good behavior and being good at our core self in a submitted to God sort of way are two different things. I was referring to outward, basic, moral, decent, lawful, kind behavior.

    It is interesting to me that in this thread am seeing comments that say basically

    1. it is preposterous to think we can be be sinless as Christians in this life because we are all sinners and there is no way around it

    plus

    2. there is no way that anybody who is not a Christian can be good or benefit from Godly principles in their life.

    So, Christians are stuck sinning, and non-Christians can’t possibly be good.

    HUH?

    A few Biblical principles that anyone can benefit from following:

    not having s*x before marriage
    obeying the laws of the land
    treating our bodies in ways harmonious with their design
    financial contributions to those in need
    not being selfish
    honoring one’s parents (a command with a promise, not tied into being followers of Christ, just for children anywhere!)
    loving one’s wife
    honoring one’s husband

    There are tons of people doing good on this earth that think that “good” is the Golden Ticket to heaven. There are many lost people doing more good than many saved people. Goodness (meaning personal behavior) isn’t the issue.

    Link | September 30th, 2005 at 7:59 am

28. Corrie wrote,

    Hi Keer,

    Debi Pearl’s book was not a book of possible suggestions and actions that a woman could take if she found herself in a certain situation. It was consistently written for a standpoint that this is EXACTLY how a woman of God will behave. If we want to have a heavenly marriage, we must do it this way.

    In many of those scenarios, what I would suggest would have been the wrong thing according to Debi Pearl.

    I am also concerned that in so many of the things she put forth she truly assumed a lot of things that were just not evident from those letters. That is scary because it gives the impression that Debi Pearl reads way too much into another person’s life. She doesn’t give the benefit of the doubt to these women at all. I see a real lack of compassion and understanding, too.

    You and Spunky really did a good job at pointing out those inconsistencies. I can’t remember whose blog it was that also pointed out (I think it was Spunky’s?) the situation of Debi Pearl’s double standards when it comes to dispensing advice to men and woman. To the man not getting enough s*x, the wife had NO excuse. To the woman who wrote her and told her she wasn’t getting enough, she told this wife to check into vitamins and rest and the like.

    I just read an article about a condition that causes women to “close-up” during intimacy. It is a very real condition and it is usually brought about because of past s*xual abuse or trauma to that area (such as childbirth). Debi just dismisses these very real issues and tells the woman she needs to buck up. No mercy at all.

    I also cannot understand endorsing a book whose author has such an unorthodox view of sin. It will color everything. The foundation is flawed.

    It is like endorsing books on marriage written by Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses and Muslims. Just because there is some truth in it doesn’t mean that it is good. You cannot dismiss the basic theology of the author because it colors *everything* they have to say. A little leaven leavens the whole bunch.

    Also, the issues of their theology are not those of infant vs believer’s baptism or tongues vs. cessationists or any other things that orthodox believers disagree about. It is something that goes against our basic Christian creeds.

    It isn’t about how we view this book at all. It is the fact that Mrs. Pearl touts this book as God’s way to a heavenly marriage. It really is her way or the highway.

    Link | September 30th, 2005 at 9:44 am

29. sparrow wrote,

    Dollymama

    While we may be able to do good in this world in some senses, we can never be spiritually good or acceptable to God.

    Sin affects every part of our actions, intents, motives and reactions. An action done by anyone may be good by our standard, but it can never meet God’s standard (and it is God who determines sinfulness). Rom. 8:8 tells us that “those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”

    In essence, Mrs. Pearl tells us we can have a godly marriage (i.e. a marriage that pleases God) by virtue of our own good works. This is unbiblical. We can only have a God-pleasing marriage by virtue of Christ’s work.

    Even if you and I were able to keep every Biblical commandment, we would still be sinners (Isaiah 64:6 “all our righteousness is like filthy rags) because we are thoroughly corrupted by sin from birth. The Pearls believe we are not born sinful, so we have the potential to perfectly obey God’s commands and be acceptable to Him. If this were true, there would be no reason for Christ’s sacrifice; if we just worked hard enough, and followed God’s principles we could be “godly”. (Gal. 2:21 “for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly”).

    This doctrine (of good works apart from Christ), in one form or another, is actually fairly pervasive in churches today. I think it is one of the most dangerous because it deceptively and subtlely turns us from dependence on Christ alone.

    Link | September 30th, 2005 at 10:12 am

30. Spunky wrote,

    Well said Sparrow.

    Dolly Mama, a heart that is not for God is against God. So they may have “outward” behavior that some perceive as “good” it is not. Their motive is toward pleasure and love of self. Even if the action is “other” focused it is still done from a selfish motive. Without faith it is impossible to please God.

    So if you are talking about a humanistic “good” then you are correct. These principles will lead to human pleasure. But if in a God centered focus our works cannot please God unless accompanies by faith in God.

    Link | September 30th, 2005 at 11:54 am

31. Spunky wrote,

    For those that may be interested in a further look at the doctrine of the Pearls I would suggest reading Catez’s most recent post at AllThingsToAll

    http://allthings2all.blogspot.com/2005/09/michael-and-debi-pearls-no-greater-joy_30.html

    Link | September 30th, 2005 at 1:14 pm

32. DollyMama wrote,

    Sparrow and Spunky,

    I truly do understand the difference between being outwardly good and being acceptable to God and His child. This hair-splitting is kind of bizarre to me. Have you never known anyone who was a nice person, a good person, but did not have God in their life? Have you never known a nice family that had a long and happy marriage? A close family with kind, polite children? And none of them was saved? I have. I have known nice, moral, kind, good people that were unsaved that are far more pleasant to be around than some long-time Christians that I know.

    All people have a choice. If we did not have the capacity to make good choices, we would not have the capacity to choose God. Of course, I guess that will open up another can of worms about whether or not we choose God or He chooses us.
    Dollymama, over and out.

    Link | September 30th, 2005 at 1:54 pm

33. Catez wrote,

    Hey thanks Spunky. Keer - hope this is ok. I couldn’t see an email addy for you on your blog. I’ve posted on the Pearl’s doctrine and I think you might be interested:

    Michael and Debi Pearl’s No Greater Joy Ministries: A Look at the Basics

    I think it explains why there is this confusion over who the book is for etc.

    Hi Dollymama - no it isn’t splitting hairs. If the foundation isn’t sound the house won’t be. There are plenty of self-help books with methods that work to a degree but from a Christian perspective they are very erroneous. When it comes to essential doctrine then I think we need to be sound and use wisdom. I do hear these comments from a few women - along the lines that it has some good advice or that they need a “Titus 2″ woman (there is no such thing as a “Titus 2″ woman in the bible. There are older women. We need to be in grace, regenerated by the Holy Spirit if we want works which do not perish in the fire when tested. So I ask - who are we wanting to please? Ourselves temporarily or God? For me - I cannot please God with trying to aply externals. Yes, I’ve met some “good” people who aren’t Christians. There but for the grace of God go I. If their “goodness” is enough I would not need Christ. If you see where I’m heading… In my post it becomes apparent why there is no teaching on sanctification as part of a marriage relationship.

    Link | September 30th, 2005 at 2:17 pm

34. razorbackmama wrote,

    DM, NO time LOL, but I’m following you totally.

    Link | September 30th, 2005 at 3:49 pm

35. Dawn wrote,

    Dollymama, yes anyone who follows God’s law w/o being saved can benefit from the blessings of their moral behavior. And yes, people can DO good w/o Christ (in man’s eyes, not God’s), but the point I was making was that in God’s eyes, none are good, period. We can impress each other, but God knows the heart, which is decietfully wicked, and will make us think that we have some amount of “good” in us. Any good we see apart from Christ is common grace. If God took His hand of blessing off humanity, we would be in a very miserable state.

    And JFTR, faith is a grace, not something we bring to the salvation table. If it were, it would be a work to add to what He did for us. But I digress here because I know Keer doesn’t want me debating that on her blog….lol.

    Link | September 30th, 2005 at 4:58 pm

36. Dawn wrote,

    This post has been removed by the author.

    Link | September 30th, 2005 at 4:59 pm

37. DollyMama wrote,

    Know what? It sounds like actually you gals DO know what I’m talking about. The way in which you are still willing to try to create a debate out of it is amazing to me!

    So, one for the road here:

    1. I know the difference between good behavior and saved by grace/sanctification and all that “good” stuff (snort)

    2. YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN when I say that people CAN and DO behave in “good” ways even apart from having Christ as their savior.

    3. I firmly believe that Godly principles reap benefits for the Godly and the ungodly. They are principles for living, not for Christians only. I also believe that having God’s power in one’s life enables them to apply Godly principles more successfully than those who are lacking God’s power in their life.

    4. I dislike much of the junk in CTBBHM, but agree with the basic issues of honoring one’s husband, and in general being a blessing to him in every way possible. I believe that those particular ideas would benefit any marriage that had them applied to them. However, I would never recommend the book to anyone, especially not a non-Christian.

    So, this will be my last comment here on this. (stop applauding! I can hear you!) Hopefully you all will choose to follow along with the “jist” of what I am saying, and stop composing large posts taking my point completely out of context. Go give your husband a back rub, for cryin’ out loud!
    (I hope you get the good natured humor in this, girls. Loosen up!)

    Link | September 30th, 2005 at 5:51 pm

38. Catez wrote,

    LOl. Well I agree with this:
    “I dislike much of the junk in CTBBHM, but agree with the basic issues of honoring one’s husband, and in general being a blessing to him in every way possible. I believe that those particular ideas would benefit any marriage that had them applied to them. However, I would never recommend the book to anyone, especially not a non-Christian.”
    I appreciate the humour too.

    Link | September 30th, 2005 at 6:59 pm

39. sparrow wrote,

    Dollymama,

    *grin* Perhaps you’re right…I’m a little trigger-happy after all these Pearl discussions!
    My eyes start to cross after discussing these issues for awhile!

    God bless.

    Link | September 30th, 2005 at 7:50 pm

40. razorbackmama wrote,

    FINALLY getting around to posting. LOL…in case anyone is still reading!
    So back to the original post (Angela’s observation)…perhaps what doesn’t sit quite right about that observation is the fact that repeatedly throughout the book Mrs. Pearl held up those examples as THE WAY that we need to respond? Sure there were lots of heart issues that I could transfer into my own life, but those weren’t the only things that Mrs. Pearl was referring to.

    And, quite frankly, we simply DON’T KNOW. We have no idea if Mrs. Pearl meant to address the heart issue behind these examples or if she was using these examples as a “directive” to other women in similar situations. She never says. It would not have been very difficult for her to say, “For example,” or to even put a stronger emphasis on the heart issue and less of one on the actual situation. That way there would not have even been the confusion that there is about the examples.

    DollyMama, I’m following you and totally agree. The good principles that are in this book (and they ARE there) could be implemented by nonbelievers to improve their marriage. Would it be a godly marriage? No. But it would be a better one most likely.

    And Dawn,

    “And JFTR, faith is a grace, not something we bring to the salvation table. If it were, it would be a work to add to what He did for us. But I digress here because I know Keer doesn’t want me debating that on her blog….lol. ;)”

    NO I DON’T!!!! We ain’t EVEN goin’ there! LOL!!!!!!! You rascal!

    Link | October 1st, 2005 at 2:50 pm

41. Dawn wrote,

    JFTR, it wasn’t my intent to “take your post out of context”, nor was I trying to debate. I do not know you and all I can go on is what you write, not what I think you mean. Forgive me if I made you feel backed into a corner.

    God bless, Dawn

    Link | October 1st, 2005 at 2:57 pm

42. Dawn wrote,

    LOL Keer! I wasn’t the one who brought it up….I just responded to it.

    Link | October 1st, 2005 at 2:59 pm

43. Glenys Hicks wrote,

    Created to be his helpmeet..a dangerous book.

    I am a conservative Baptist, non-feministic and a submissive wife. Even though there were some good things regarding bringing women back to godly principles in marriage, I found this book very disturbing. I had been a severely abused wife for 25 years. So from the angle of an abused wife, I would like to comment and speak up for those women too afraid or unable to speak for themselves.

    Chapter 2: The ugly hillbilly woman- the first and main reason she is accounted as ‘Ugly’ by Debi Pearl, is that she is overweight! As an overweight woman, that stung! I may be overweight, but my husband and family and friends have never even intimated that I am ugly! The fact that a smile can change this “worse than regular ugly!” woman is hogwash. It takes more than a smile to change a character- though a smile does indeed help. To say that the woman became unrecognizable when she was caught scowling because she was upset at her obese daughter taking candy is a bit far-fetched (unless her husband is short-sighted or dim-witted) However, I do agree that we must cultivate a happy disposition and smile. Our husbands and family need to see that.
    When I first read the letter to the desperate wife whose husband was having an emotional affair with his secretary my first response was that Mrs Pearl’s advice was wrong. Then I reconsidered and thought that there was truth in the advice that if the wife stood up for her rights (and indeed she was in the right)- and fought to win her man back, then that would be the better way to approach it than to end the marriage. I have seen marriages almost ruined by affairs become stronger than ever where the wife has stood her ground. But if the marriage fails, why does Mrs Pearl attest that “if you get another husband, he will be like your old one- cast off by some other woman”? Who is she to say that with such conviction? It is not necessarily true or a given fact!
    But it is so true that you cannot force or demand your husband to love you and that he cannot be pressured to love you because you are husband and wife. But why does love come into the equation in a Christian marriage? Where are commitment, understanding, compassion, forgiveness and other Christ-like attributes like forbearance, integrity and obligation to keep the marriage vows simply because God says we must?
    If one person does not want to be in a marriage, it is a sad fact of life that sometimes no matter how much the spouse who wishes to remain in the marriage tries to please the errant spouse, then the one wanting out will often leave or make it impossible to stay in the marriage by becoming violent or aggressive. Then, because of hardness of heart of the errant spouse, the prayers and efforts of the faithful spouse come to naught. Why? Because we are carnal creatures at times- both men and women. God sometimes cannot soften a heart that is turned from Him because He will not violate our free will. However,I believe if you loved your husband enough, you would fight for him. Or stay in the marriage until it was impossible to remain safely in it.
    We do see a bit of the “boys will be boys” mentality in this chapter, and I have to wonder if this is biased towards men being helpless creatures bewitched under the guiles of wicked women- Jezebels all. I know that men are called to account to God for their sins and being a man who can’t control his thought life and actions is not being a godly man. It does seem that the wife is to bear the burden of blame for her husband’s sin and then take it on the chin! And smile, smile, smile through her tears!
    Another sore point with me is where she says,” being pitiful, hurt, discouraged and even sickly is one side of a “bad marriage” coin. Men in general (your husband in particular), are repulsed by women who project this image. A man’s spirit tells him his woman is rejecting him manipulating him when she regularly manifests a broken spirit, and he will react in anger.” As a woman who suffers from an illness that causes chronic pain and fatigue, I am so overjoyed to report that my husband doesn’t treat me as a faulty appliance which causes him great anger, but he cherishes me and tries to alleviate my suffering on bad days by sharing in my tasks and closing an eye to that which can’t be done on any particular day. After all, we promised to love each other in sickness and in health. Isn’t that type of commitment what God wants in marriage? So this chapter got me thanking God for the blessing of a husband who puts me first when I need it.
    Chapter 4: Thanksgiving produces joy. Whilst I can see Mrs Pearl’s point about not getting upset about the trash not being taken out, I think she is a little (much?) on the immature side when she finds screaming like that funny. IMO she is mighty fortunate to have a man who can see the funny side- especially when he has not been in the habit of taking trash out for her. And then to see her struggling week after week with the trash and not help her seems really inconsiderate to me.
    Also I am uncomfortable that a woman who is teaching other women to be godly wives forgets that we are to be discreet- especially when our intimate lives are involved. It is not very discreet to almost hope that the business manager comes in and then to have a scream ready to embarrass the poor man! Yes, we are to be our husband’s playmate! I agree 100% but then I agree with the Word which clearly says: ” as a jewel of gold in a swine’s snout, so is a fair woman which is without discretion.” Proverbs 11:22
    To not care about the feelings of the business manager but in fact to entertain thoughts of him finding Mr and Mrs Pearl frollicking or worse yet, in flagrant delicto, is absolutely contrary to Scripture. We are not to be the cause of another person to stumble- apart from being very embarrassing to the staff, I am sure most of them would think Mr and Mrs Pearl extremely indiscreet and insensitive- lovemaking should be enjoyable, fun and PRIVATE!
    Chapter 5: the gift of wisdom: In the beginning of this chapter, IMO Mrs Pearl is putting a great deal of pressure on the wife to be the prime force behind a successful marriage. If the marriage is not a heavenly one, it would seem in her opinion, that the wife is not submitting or being thankful and joyful. Whilst I agree that basically what she says is true, there are marriages where normal boundaries are overstepped and it is impossible to be thankful or joyful- for example after a beating or some other horrendously humiliating experience. Now it is extremely difficult if not impossible, to be thankful to and for the husband who is like this.
    Marriage is a two-way street. A man is to love his wife as his own body- no man hates his own body but cherishes it (Ephesians 5:28) To completely negate this by saying that a wife should love and respect her husband regardless is OK- to a point. But what of the badly abused wife? It is impossible to be a loving responsive wife in the evening after that same man has bruised you physically and emotionally during the day. At best our body can be receptive, but our heart cannot join in with loving responses. The fear overrides all else.
    I feel Mrs Pearl is totally unable to empathise with a wife who is badly abused and to add the pressure of maintaining or creating a “heavenly” marriage in such a case is not only impossible but invites the poor woman to break down emotionally or even doubt or lose her faith! Mrs Pearl is preaching the truth for the majority of marriages- but not for all!
    As a woman nearly beaten to the point of death in my first marriage, I take great exception to this:(the abusive harsh husband)…”But he cannot victimize you unless you react outside of the wisdom of God.” This is such hogwash! When your jaw is dislocated or your ribs broken, it is a normal reaction to feel pain. Then to fear being hurt like that again. It is hopeful that the godly woman will turn to God in her pain and not feel rejected by Him. To even continue in a marriage like this takes more faith and obedience than Mrs Pearl will ever know personally.
    I did as Mrs Pearl advocates: I held my tongue and didn’t strike back in anger. I tried not to feel sorry for myself and protected HIM from the consequences of his sin by not going to the law and telling my doctor lies about how my injuries came about. I understand what Mrs Pearl is saying but I also understand that there are some men walking so much in sin that it goes WAY BEYOND TRASH BAGS NOT BEING TAKEN OUT. Preaching like Mrs Pearl’s saw me come to the point of a nervous breakdown.
    When you feel like God doesn’t intervene or care or if you leave your husband, that you are going to Hell, and are therefore trapped in a cycle of abuse that makes you vomit up everything you eat because of fear, then you have nowhere to go but down into the pit of Hell itself. I am adamant that God does care, and doesn’t want any wife to be treated in this way. But I realise that on the other side of the coin, there are many wives who will justify leaving their husbands for a minor infringement like not taking the trash out! So this chapter has to be read assuming that a marriage is not in the extreme range of violence against the woman.
    I wasn’t going to get personal in my critique, but maybe some women reading this will identify and be helped by what I write! Balance, dear Sisters, balance and wisdom in ALL things! So this chapter to me is one where I nod and turn the page over!
    I have made notes of other things both good and bad to comment on, but I now realise that in all honesty, the more I delve into this book, the more I find it disturbs me. There are too many things that Debi Pearl writes about that are not backed up by scripture and in other situations, I feel that she and Michael offer no real answer for those married to men who are habitually abusing their wives. I am not really well enough at the moment to write about each and every chapter, so I will make a blanket critique of this book by saying IMO the advice is often unrealistic and even dangerous- especially about keeping silent if you are a wife suffering from abuse.
    My belief is that when a wife comes to the point of shedding blood or having bones broken by her husband then the authorities should be notified, her doctor should be consulted and treatment given and her pastor should be informed. I regret that I followed the “suffering in silence” method of dealing with my own physical abuse and almost ended up dying at my ex husband’s hands. To counsel women along the lines of silent suffering is not wise counsel and downright dangerous.
    So in closing, I would say that I have changed my mind about recommending the book- I would caution all those who read it to keep in mind that husbands do indeed have no right before God or man to so damage their wife that she suffer real physical damage. Christian or not- the red line is crossed when a woman or child is hit enough to cause any damage.
    We have many excellent books on Christian marriage that are equally good in bringing women back to remembering that they are helpmeets. IMO the Pearls book is not totally backed up in scripture and is therefore erroneous teaching and dangerous as well. I now would say that my findings are 90% rubbish and 10% good teaching. If you are in a marriage where you are not living in fear every waking moment, praise God! I am happy for you, however, I am speaking up for thousands of godly Christian Sisters who are not! They need your prayers and compassion badly- something that Debi and Michael Pearl seem to be lacking!

    Here are some books that are by far better than CTBHH:
    “The Excellent Wife: A Biblical Perspective” by Martha Peace.Leslie Vernick’s ‘How to Act Right When Your Spouse Acts Wrong’Gary Chapman: ‘The 5 Love Languages’ and ‘On the Marriage You Always Wanted.’ And by John Piper: ‘What is the Difference? Manhood and Womanhood Defined According to the Bible.’”The Power Of A Positive Wife” by Karol Ladd
    ‘Feminine Appeal: 7 Virtues of a Godly Wife’ and ‘Mother and/or Biblical Womanhood in the Home’…both written by Nancy Leigh Demoss. Other greats include ‘Lord, Meet Me in the Laundry Room’ by Barbara Curtis as well as ‘The Mother at Home’. © Glenys Robyn Hicks

    Link | May 5th, 2006 at 5:01 am

44. Glenys Hicks wrote,

    This is my link to my blog “Spending Time With Glenys”

    Link | May 5th, 2006 at 5:11 am

45. Glenys Hicks wrote,

    A Time To Search My Heart About CTBHH
    July 23, 2006 at 9:14 am | In Uncategorized | 2 Comments
    Today I received a comment regarding my April post on CTBHH from a lady called Molly. It made me stop to do some heart searching.

    I reflected on Molly’s comment regarding my first abusive marriage and I had to concede that it had indeed ‘coloured my lenses’ in how I think about women suffering in silence at the hands of a violent husband. It has ‘coloured my lenses’ in how I see the church in general counsel the abused wife- and it certainly has ‘coloured my lenses’ to how I respond to the erroneous advice Debi Pearl dishes out to the suffering wife.

    So, I stand guilty of having coloured lenses. I stand guilty of being sensitive to the weak, afraid and hurting godly wife who is abused. I weep when I read or hear of children living with domestic abuse. My lenses are very coloured here because I was raised in a home of not one, but two alcoholics (an uncle who lived with us), who made our lives miserable. My father would often push my mother and I would have to push him off her….yes, it coloured my lenses.

    I cry for the children enduring not only the violence that alcoholism brings into the home, but these days- the drugs! My heart is heavy as I relive the pain of domestic violence seen through children’s eyes. And I cry for the feelings of powerlessness that it evokes in all at the receiving end.

    When a book such as CTBHH comes along, I am hopeful that it will have real “meat” for the abused wife- some hope and helpful comments to encourage and edify! There are many that do address this issue-alas, CTBHH is not one of them. For the issue is almost deliberately side-stepped, leaving the reader with sand in her mouth.

    So, why do I write this blog? Is it a vent for my years of trouble? A cathargic release leading to healing? A bid to become “known” as a Christian writer? God forbid, none of these things! My primary focus is to encourage women- all women: single, happily married, unhappily married, divorced or separated or widowed. I truly love my Sisters In Christ everywhere and I try to uplift and edify them- because of love. God knows, I have had many things happen to me in 53 years: I simply share them in what I hope are transparently honest posts.

    My heart is sad that CTBHH is such a divisive book- one is forced to take a stance one way or the other. This should not be! Sisters should support each other in the LORD not fight each other over this issue or anything else. I am sad that Debi and Michael Pearl’s Ministry opportunity was so badly squandered. So much good could have come from them if they had stuck to scripture and had not only compassion, but commonsense!

    So I say simply- I stand with the weak and afraid, the uncertain and the searching! I stand with the little children who are switched from an early age- and I stand (trembling) against the sinful husbands who have to take responsibility for their own actions and who must stop pointing the finger at their wives. And I stand against Ministries that offer vinegar to the thirsty and switches for loving discipline and cuddles. I don’t think I stand alone…..

    © Glenys Robyn Hicks

    Link | July 23rd, 2006 at 10:58 pm

46. Keer “Unplugged” » Blog Archive » Cleaning up my sidebar wrote,

    […] 18 Chapter 19 A response to the CTBHHM reviews Angela comments on my review My response to Angela Those of you who have read Created To Be His Help Meet A Look at the Pearls’ Basic Doctrine My chapter-by-chapter review of […]

    Link | April 4th, 2008 at 10:21 am